Transcript: 

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Geraldine  0:12  
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the New Earth lawyer podcast. This is a podcast where we feature lawyers who are changing the practice of law to change the world. My name is Geraldine Johns-Putra, and I'm a lawyer based in Melbourne, Australia. Today we are going to speak to Amanda Lamond, who is based in Cape Town, South Africa. Amanda is a former lawyer, but now she is much more. She is a legal futurist, a soul coach for lawyers, and a spiritual channel. Her name "Amanda Lamond" means beloved law speaker. After working as a law lecturer, a director of a not-for-profit college for impoverished students, a facilitator of corporate leadership programmes and organisational development consultant and an entrepreneur running events for women lawyers, she says she finally started listening to spiritual guidance that said she is here to work with awakening lawyers. She now coaches and teaches awakening lawyers and writes and  speaks about how we can give birth to the new legal system that humanity is crying out for. Amanda, welcome, thank you for being here. I can't wait to get into our conversation.

 

Amanda  1:42  
Well, thank you for having me. I also can't wait, we've chatted a little bit, just for the last few minutes. And I feel like I'm just raring to go and continue their conversation.

 

Geraldine  1:51  
Well, let's start with the other things that you do. Because we started talking about all these other things, you know, not just a lawyer was what I said, but start where you like.

 

Amanda  2:03  
So I find it very difficult, well I have for a while, this conversation which you used to get a dinner parties, I say used to because who goes to dinner parties anymore during this strange period of COVID times? But this thing of well, what do you do? And that even my kid oh, you know, he's five, and he says, well, mum, like, what do you do? And how to explain this to people? And obviously, saying that I'm a lawyer is a simple answer. But I feel like that that's just not at all true. Because the truth is that I don't practise law anymore. So I have over over the last couple of years come up with some terms, because of course on LinkedIn, you need to put something under the title of what it is you do. So I describe myself now, I say I'm a legal futurist, a soul coach for lawyers, and a spiritual channel. So if we start with the first bit the legal futurist.

 

Geraldine  2:50  
Yeah.

 

Amanda  2:51  
I am, I'm fascinated by this period that we're living in, where we, I describe it as having front row seats to the demise of our current civilization. So it's quite a scary time, I think, to be alive. But it's also very exciting, it's full of possibilities. But none of us quite know if we're going to change things in time. So when I talk about the collapse of all the systems, I mean the monetary system, because we're moving towards cryptocurrencies and moving away from cash, and I believe in not so long, cash is going to be like a very outdated way of dealing with things that will still exist for a while, but it is going to be phased out. And then when we look at the education system, and that collapse of how it was a model developed during the Industrial Revolution, and it's simply no longer fit for purpose. It's not training people for the world that we're in now. And that's both at a primary level and also, you know, right through tertiary education. And then the medical system is also collapsing. I'm fascinated now with the treatment of COVID as all based on fighting disease instead of the maintenance of health.

 

So all of our systems are very much, we're fighting things, that means we're focusing on the very thing we're trying to prevent, you know. People speculate that the war on drugs, we're fighting the thing we're trying to avoid. So the people who are dying of COVID tend to be, by and large, those with comorbidities. But we're not talking about why people have you know, obesity and diabetes and all of these things. And then people are starting this conversation around how race so often plays a role and poverty in these pre existing conditions, which are then tied to the numbers of people dying from COVID. So that system is you know, on its way out . The food system is so broken. I mean, I walk into, the more I learn about food and health and I walk into a grocery store and I just look at what's lining the aisles and I think most of this food is toxic. It is filled with preservatives, which makes shelf life and whatever but this is not what is good for my body. And so of course I'm trying to get eat local and change, you know how I do all those things, but it's a shift to not go into supermarket and filling your trolley and freezer.

 

So the same change and systemic collapse we're seeing in law where I think it's Susan Daicoff, Professor Susan Daicoff, who I quote often, who wrote Lawyer Know Thyself. She's gone back into practice. She was an academic for years. Extraordinary woman. Mathematician, so degree in maths and law and psychology, a real sort of DaVinci.

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Geraldine  5:25  
Yeah.

 

Amanda  5:25  
And she speaks about the tripartite crisis in the law, which I simplified by saying that lawyers are not liked, lawyers don't like each other, and lawyers don't like themselves. So she explains it a lot more eloquently than that. But she talks about the poor public perception of lawyers, high levels of incivility and aggression amongst lawyers, which I hear that often. 

 

Geraldine  5:48  
Yep. 

 

Amanda  5:49  
And then this very, like low levels of satisfaction, high levels of substance abuse, depression, alcoholism, all of these things. So we're looking at the collapse of our legal system. And I explained to the law students that I would say the legal system is about 20 years behind the medical system in terms of our evolution. If you look at the medical model, these days it's quite common that if somebody has a serious disease or diagnosis or something like cancer, that they will explore alternative options alongside mainstream, you know, medical, it's not strange for people to have like Reiki practitioners on their phone or acupuncturists, whereas 20 years ago, if you spoke about, you know, acupuncture people would be like, that's really, you know, that was quite out there. You know, even in the 80s, 90s. Whereas now that that's being accepted that we have to look at things from all sides. And law, when I talk about, you know, holistic law, which is the term that, also one of them is being used Susan Daicoff used to talk about comprehensive law. And now we are kind of tending towards the term integrative law. Again, they are just terms, but really about the same thing, to me, it's, it's this awakening within the profession. 

 

And those who are part of this integrative law movement is this realisation that they just weren't meeting people's actual needs. And the lawyers got frustrated, because they'd see the clients presenting with the same or similar problems. And so it was frustrating to them. And they realised they needed to get deeper into what was causing the conflict. So I now regard conflict, as the most, it contains the most enormous potential for personal change. And I believe the conflict is here to teach us things. So it's not just random, that we have embroiled, or found ourselves, you know, like, the neighbours suing you over what-what, or your business partner, it's not random. These things are absolutely, you know, intentional in terms of the flow of our lives and the bigger waves of force that are at play, and our own personal evolution. And so I strongly encourage lawyers just to start viewing the transformative power of conflict. And then their role shifts to being a guide, helping people through the conflict. And sometimes, not only how do you how do you resolve that conflict? But how do you understand the things that lead gave rise to it, because when those are healed, you're not going to find yourself in a similar situation with another business partner or neighbour or whatever it is. These things tend to happen in pattern. So there's the unhealed trauma.

 

Geraldine  8:31  
I wanted to ask you about the lawyers that you're, whom you're mentoring, or are in the mentoring programme that you've started, what's the development like been like, over the last few years? What do you seeing in these young lawyers coming through?

 

Amanda  8:49  
So, one of my big frustrations has been figuring out how to change systems, you know how to bring about change. So for a while I was working with law firms, and I ran a woman lawyer network. But I found myself in this uncomfortable situation of trying to get funding from law firms who didn't quite buy into the vision. And then I really knew that there was this need to do work at a university level. But the universities, a lot of them are just aren't ready. So they are universities all around the world who are starting to offer more integrative programmes, but it's still a very small percentage. And so, obviously, in terms of now, everything's gone online. But until fairly recently, in this country, in South Africa, things were face to face. So I spoke to some of the big universities here. And while there's interest, and I did meetings and proposals and whatever the buy-in just wasn't there, the rule to make it happen, like, let's include this in the curriculum, it's important. I'm very open now about the spiritual work. And you know, we'll touch on that later, the fact that I'm a channel, so when I, when I pitched to universities, I didn't want to complicate things. And so I talked about leadership training for lawyers. And I think something that you said earlier refers to that we are, we confer a lot of power on lawyers. When you get a law degree, you have power. Yeah. And I feel that it is immoral, even illegal to give people that sort of power, and yet not teach them how to use it wisely.

 

Geraldine  10:22  
I couldn't have said it better. Yeah.

 

Amanda  10:24  
So no personal exploration. 

 

Geraldine  10:27  
Yeah. 

Amanda  10:27  
 

Like, who are you? What are you planning to do with this law degree? How are you going to make the world a better place? I love the idea of the MBA pledge that a whole lot of students have come up with, which is a self, you know, you which according to voluntary pledge, saying that I will use my MBA for good, I'm not just using it to try and make as much money as possible. And I have long held this vision. So if anyone's listening has the energy to do this, please do. But to have this vision of law students taking a similar pledge saying, I am going to use my law degree for good. I have studied law because I want to make the world a better place. I went to some universities did these things. And they're all like, yes, yes, this sounds great. But then crickets, you know, nothing. So my career's felt a lot like, I'm told that I'm ahead of my time, I go and pitch these ideas. And then, you know, hear crickets. And so it's been quite frustrating in that sense, which is why I've shifted now to working with individuals, I've realised that there are many, many individuals who are ready to shift and change. And I could do this work also in groups, but that trying to change organisations and institutions is not where my expertise lies. And it's just frustrating because they're not really on board. So I've shifted the way that I work to be primarily with individuals who are ready to to change their lives.

 

So with the student thing, I was very fortunate last year, so I'm not still doing that thing. But there was an organisation within the University of Cape Town running a mentorship program and then because of the COVID period, I took it online, and the mentorship thing, the students were paired with magistrates, and fortunately, the courts did open up and students were able to go and observe the thing. But the online portion of the program, I started introducing them to integrative law in a whole different way of thinking about the law and the reaction was extraordinary. The messages, we had a Facebook group they started pouring in just saying, this has changed my life, I had no idea that this was out there, this is the type of lawyer I want to be, what more can I read? And just like thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

And then I did a lot of wellbeing stuff because they were high, the levels of anxiety, stress and depression are generally very high in law school. And we see that with the statistics that are being, you know, released, none of them in South Africa, by the way, but these are US statistics. But of course, last year with people losing family members and all learning online, and it was radical. And so I did a lot of this wellbeing stuff. And again, just the reaction from students saying thank you. I mean, I had letters from students saying, you may not know, but I was actually suicidal. 

 

Geraldine  10:46  
Mm-hmm.

 

Amanda  11:53  
And it was your messages that kept me going. So I was immensely touched and had the sense that this is what I meant to be doing. 

 

Geraldine  13:10  
Yeah.

 

Amanda  13:10  
And the other thing that then changed is realising because of technology, I'm not going to wait. So that program is, it had funding for three years, and it's finished. So unfortunately, it couldn't continue. It is in a different way, shape, form this year, but I'm not involved. But earlier this year, doing some other coaching program and one of the questions that I was journaling on is if you could do anything right now, and you knew it could not fail, which I've seen this in various forms, if you could do anything right now and you knew it would not fail, what would you love to be doing? And I realised I want to run another mentorship program. And this time, I wanted it to be fully based on awakening lawyers. And you know, last year I sort of slipped it in. It wasn't the aim of that programme. I did co-opt it, I will be honest, a little bit for my own means because I'm so interested in opening hearts and opening minds. Not everybody appreciated that last year's program, but anyway, the powers that be when I  co-opted it. But the students certainly did, so I had this vision.

 

And now we're in our third week or so of having launched the awakening lawyers students mentorship program. So we have 28 South African students, and we have 28 lawyers from all around the world. And I think that's about nine different timezones, I hadn't realised how challenging that was going to be having mentors from all over the world. So we've got South African, I don't have more North African, I mean, this is like, it's 2018, that was my first time at doing this. And then we've got Europe and Britain and Canada and North America, one from South America and Australia. I don't have anyone from Asia at the moment on this particular program. But it was amazing in a very short space of time. I mean, literally like three weeks, I just had this vision, and that's how I give birth to things, I get a very clear vision and then I just have to have absolute faith that it is going to happen. And trust that other people will see and get that vision and come along with me. And that's what's happened. So the lawyers who signed up are amazing. I mean, we were having conversations, where we were weeping on the phone together. And they have described it as a homecoming. And that was an unexpected thing for me. I hadn't realised, you know, this was about mentoring the students. And now Geraldine, what I can tell you is, I know this group of mentors who've been gathered is for something so much bigger than just this program. 

 

Geraldine  15:37  
Ah yes.

 

Amanda  15:38  
I can sense it. 

 

Geraldine  15:39  
Yes. 

 

Amanda  15:39  
I can feel it.

 

Geraldine  15:40  
Well, this, this really segues nicely into talking about the other work that you do, because what you're describing about how you give birth to things, and you just know, you have to do it, and off you go and do it. You are helping people to do that as well, you're coaching people into into finding their purpose. Could you tell us about that?

 

Amanda  16:04  
So I started using the word soul coach for lawyers, because there are a lot of lawyer coaches out there. One of the things that I noticed on LinkedIn, I think that it's all based on algorithms now. So obviously, I know a few now, posts pop up all the time, it feels like every second person on my LinkedIn profile is a lawyer coach. I'm sure that in terms of world percentages of people doing this job, it's not, it can't be that many. But I see a lot of lawyers who awaken. And by that I mean a spiritual awakening where they start realising I'm here for a reason. What is it, I want to bring all of myself to what I do, I want to make the world a better place by my having been here. So that's what I've referred to by awakening. It's a level of consciousness and awareness beyond one's own immediate self interest.

 

And I see a lot of them then do a coaching course, because there's this yearning to bring in the right side of the brain and this deep empathy because people have been drawn to law, they want to help people and then find it's very difficult to do so because you've got this very tight box within which you're working. So a lot of these lawyers do coaching courses and things on the side. And then to my sadness, a lot of them leave the law because they're like, I just can't do this anymore. So look I can't criticise. So if you are a lawyer coach out there listening to it, I am no longer practising law. So I'm certainly not going to stand in judgment of your path, but my sense is that I want to help people find ways to still be all of who they are, but stay within the law, and stay practising law. So that's why I say now that I help lawyers who loved the law, but are disillusioned and disheartened by the way it's practised, to reimagine and redesign their lives, so that they can practise law in their own way and in their own time, and on their own terms.

 

Geraldine  17:52  
Well, I can speak to how difficult that journey is, because that was precisely my journey. So I had my spiritual awakening, the very start of it probably about 12 or 13 years ago, when I started to realise that there was more to this reality than I was seeing. And it was a, it was an exploration on the side of my career. And it grew, and it grew. And it grew until it had to be integrated into what I was doing for most of my waking hours, which was working as a corporate lawyer.

 

Amanda  18:22  
Because otherwise you completely split. There's the sense that yes, you are two people.

 

Geraldine  18:25  
It's so so damaging. And I've spoken to many people who've experienced that split, it is psychologically extremely damaging. And it leads to the mental health problems that we see right, which is...

 

Amanda  18:35  
We can do it in our 20s, interestingly, so at that stage, when we are trying on different identities, it's possible for us to do that, because you do, you're trying to figure out who you are. And so I mean, I remember dyeing my hair, different colours, and I had different boyfriends. And so I'd be like a surfer chick one week, and you know, something else the next month. And we can do that in our 20s. But in our 30s, and then particularly when you've moved into your 40s, if there isn't this integration, you get the fragmentation of the psyche.

 

Geraldine  19:01  
Yeah, it can't be repressed any longer, it has to surface. So I actually had the dilemma I've had these thoughts twice, at least, of whether to remain being a lawyer or not. The first time I came back to the law, because I realised that I enjoyed helping people achieve their goals in a legal sense. And then the second time I came back was it was because I realised that that there was a part of me that deeply held in esteem, the values of law, the values of order, you know, rule of law. And so it actually felt like I aligned with my identity, to call myself a lawyer and to continue to work as a lawyer. But I see that need for people to really make up their minds as to whether they're going to be an ex lawyer, or practising lawyer. And I share the same feeling of sadness that we don't hang on to more people to continue to practise, find a way to practise law after.

 

Amanda  20:04  
They awaken, and they leave. And we need to have awakened lawyers and awakening lawyers within the profession. And that's why I'm doing a lot of work with students. Now, by showing them a different way early on and saying, you have a choice. Now, they're going to be a number of students for whom this doesn't resonate at all, because we are all operating at very different levels of consciousness and society. And that's, you know how it is. But a lot of us only discovered that there was this different way, way down the line, and particularly after, you know, burnout, adrenal fatigue, and depression and divorce and like substance abuse issues. And so I'm saying to these students, look, we can't, you can't sidestep or live somebody else's life for them, you've got to be, you can't just say like we would do our children, like, don't do all the bad stuff, because I'm going to keep you safe and help you come out the other end and start, it is part of the human journey, you know, that we go through our own paths, and we get wounded and we learn from it.

 

But I am saying to these students, I just want you to know now that there is this other way, and here are all these amazing, full lead lawyers doing extraordinary work. And if you are interested, you can go down that path. And that's all it is. It's not you know, you're not forced to, not shoved. You may think, well, this sounds, you know, too esoteric, or I don't know, you know, maybe somebody wants to they've seen Suits, and they want to be a cutthroat litigator. And that's absolutely fine. But you need to know that there are these different options open to you. And then you are making an informed decision. Because right now, the students are not making informed decisions. Because the law schools still focus on this antiquated model, where success is seen as either I'm going to go like the human rights law route and not make much money. This is the perception I'm getting like there's that option. Or there is the like, academic route in which I would just be twisted, you know, and like in a bubble, largely writing papers and talking to my colleagues and whatever, or I'm going to go to foot to try and get articles, we call it you intern in a big firm.

 

Geraldine  21:59  
Yeah. 

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Amanda  21:59  
And like that is seen as that that's what success is. And I think the world has opened up so much, and there are lawyers doing stuff people never dreamed of, and that's terribly innovative. I mean, Jacqueline Horani who's one of the mentors in the program was just telling me about a sliding scale fee model design app thing that she's doing for lawyers. And there's a lot of also, apps being developed for better access to justice in terms of like using your phone. And yeah, and now that all the court cases are suddenly being held virtually, like there's another whole world opening up, and mediations being done virtually. So there's this whole world of cool stuff.

 

Geraldine  22:45  
Yeah. 

 

Amanda  22:45  
And I feel like my job is to say to the students here, I just want you to know what's out there. And so far, again, the reaction that I'm getting we're in early days in this mentorship programme. But the comments from the students, I've recorded a video, which is 14 minutes, and it's an introduction to integrative law, and I'm looking at the comments and they go, oh, my God, thank you, thank you, I had no idea, and one student just wrote, this seems like the opposite of what we're being taught in law school.

 

Geraldine  23:16  
But you're equipping them for that new paradigm that is going to have to emerge out of all of the systems that are breaking down that you were talking about earlier. Because it's going to happen. I mean, there's just too much too much of the old that is unsustainable, for many reasons. climate change is just one but also talking about the financial system, government systems, it can't hold. So the lawyers that are going to emerge out of it into the new paradigm, which is why I call this podcast the New Earth lawyer, what skills are they going to have? And you are actually one of the important guides along that way. Which really brings me to another question I had, which was, when you were talking about the system's breakdown, it occurred to me that if one had a very materialistic view of the world, and by this I mean, non spiritual view of the world, looking at this systems breaking down, can be very anxiety-inducing, can be very worrying, can drive one to the brink of despair. But I found with a spiritual perspective, there's actually hope, more than hope, there's a belief that we will make our way through to something better. Do you accord with that? How does your spiritual experience you know, lead you through this destruction of the systems?

 

Amanda  24:51  
So I work with various trainings, and one of them was developed along the lines, there's a program called Create your Destiny. But I'm seeing more and more people, it's the same thing. There's a wonderful word for that, that I meant to look up when the same idea is being generated in loads of different places at the same time. It's like an idea whose time has come.

 

Geraldine  25:11  
Yeah, the hundredth monkey effect.

 

Amanda  25:14  
I think there's a term for this, and I can't remember what it is. There's this great word for, you know, like fashion designers all coming up with the same thing at the same time, but in different parts of the world. So there's this idea. And one of the premises is that our focus creates our reality. 

 

Geraldine  25:29  
Yeah. 

 

Amanda  25:29  
And so there are I mean, hundreds of teachers now, look at Martha Beck and Joe Dispenza. And Joseph Vitale. I mean, I'm always, and Eckhart Tolle, I'm absorbing like a lot of these things. And I'm bringing a lot of these teachings to lawyers. So the thing that your focus creates your reality. So if your focus is on the material, world, only, then it feels like any disruption of that is quite terrifying. Whereas when you start to see things in systemic, much larger terms, I have this deep and abiding faith that we are being held, and that everything is unfolding perfectly, although it feels so tumultuous.

 

And a lot of what I do now is based on focusing on what it is I want to see. So right now, I don't watch television, barely at all. I do watch some Netflix series, I'll be honest, but I don't watch news, unless there's something massive or like, you know, my mother has it on or something. So occasionally. I barely listen to the news in the car. And I choose to surround myself with really uplifting and positive things about changing the world. And my energy is devoted to my family, to my community, to people whose lives I am looking after and trying to affect and then bringing about this change with the students and these lawyers. And I find that that is enough. And that the more stuff I bring in have negative influences. Because the news is is very one sided. You know, it's always the bad stories, you don't hear the good stories, and I've just found that it makes me feel overwhelmed and helpless.

 

And when I buy into really positive and uplifting things, I often start the day walking my dog, take the child to school, walk the dog, and I listen to audios about all the change we want to see in the world and how to do that and how to be the fullest expression of yourself. And I must say, by the time I've done that walk and breathed in, I often walk on the mountain, I breathe in fresh air, and I filled myself with positivity, by the time I get to my desk, Geraldine, I'm on fire. And that's what I'm teaching my clients to do. I mean, I sit down, literally, and I'm so filled with ideas and inspiration that I just want to like be in the world, I want more hours to work, because I love what I do. And it is possible to be like that. But we've been, we weren't shown that, you know, we were shown that like work is hard, and it's hustle and all these things you need to do.

 

And so a lot of the coaching I'm doing now, I'll backtrack a moment, I call it soul coaching, because I realised that the type of coaching, often especially that's available at law firms, is executive coaching. And as one client is working with me, now she said, at the end of the day, the coaching was about how I could make more money for the firm.

 

Geraldine  28:21  
Exactly.

 

Amanda  28:21  
Because they're paying for my coach.

 

Geraldine  28:22  
Or to put you into a certain box, if there's if you're starting to wander off, you know, not fitting the box anymore. We're going to give you the coaching to fix you. So you can get back into the box and perform.

 

Amanda  28:34  
Yeah. So initially, I mean, just in the last couple of years when I put the word soul coach on LinkedIn or whatever, and I thought, oh, it's going to sound flaky. Like that's my own judgment 

 

Geraldine  28:45  
Yeah.

 

Amanda  28:45  
From having grown up in the legal fraternity. And then I realised but if someone thinks that's flaky, they're not my customers, you know what I mean? If they don't working with soul, I have no interest in. I mean, that sounds. I mean, they're just not, they're not my clients. 

 

Geraldine  29:00  
That's it. There's no resonance. 

 

Amanda  29:01  
It's totally cool.

 

Geraldine  29:02  
Yeah, yeah. 

 

Amanda  29:04  
And recently, you know, I wrote something about racism, and how the weird thing that racism, the word, like racism and racist has become, almost being called that is worse than whatever it is you've done, like the focus has been because the word is so loaded now that whatever the person has done seems to be secondary to the fact you've called her a racist, which completely flips the whole thing on its head. And so I wrote a thing about that, and then I realised some of my subscribers, you know, might unsubscribe. And then I thought, well, good. Like if this, if this upsets them, these are not my people. And that's cool, please, you know, please leave if what I'm writing about is long winded or too esoteric, or I'm talking about uncomfortable things, then by all means, you're free to go your own way.

 

So more and more, and I think this happens in your 40s, that you step into your own power, and you realise like, this is who I am, and you don't have to like me, it's not as important to me anymore. I mean, I'm not saying I'm that thick skinned that I can, you know, I can handle it all. But I'm less concerned. So I say that I'm a soul coach, because I'm interested very specifically in what it is you came here to do? How not to get hung up on that, if it's not clear at the moment, because maybe we can figure out what you can do for now, you know, it doesn't have to be like, this is the ultimate thing, because I think there is quite a thing about your purpose at the moment. And people feeling like oh, my God, if it's not clear, then I'm just wasting my time. And actually, it's all building. And sometimes we're not ready to know.

 

Geraldine  30:32  
Perfect, yes, I couldn't agree more, the journey is finding out right. And it's not like there's, you've got to get up to the top of the mountain, which has lawyers and professionals we were trained to do. It's on the way to what you perceive as being the top you might actually find there was a, there's another path off, that you feel compelled to take. And you wouldn't have seen that path if you hadn't set off on the journey in the first place. But it's leading off in a completely different direction. And you might end up feeling like that's your purpose, but even then it might just be for a little while longer, and something else will pop out. And as you let it unfold, it just does so perfectly. So I think it's a beautiful thing that you're doing.

 

Amanda  31:17  
Those two years that I spent running a non-profit college for students. That was when I'd run away from the law. So background to ... for two years, I was running this college for students kind of from townships. And it had nothing to do with law really, but it was deeply soul fulfilling. And it has played a vital role in who I am and how I see the world. So I see it as absolutely necessary. Although at the time, it felt a little bit like well, like you know, I just became a lawyer and now I'm off in the middle of nowhere running this thing for students. What was you know what that was about, but only later in life? It all adds up. That was a very necessary piece. And it made me realise I want to because I woke up there feeling I am doing what I meant to be doing. I had a deep sense of rightness in my soul and of being of service to people who needed me. And I thought I want to bring back the law piece at some time but I want this, I want this feeling to be with it. And so it was absolutely necessary.

 

Geraldine  32:22  
How would you work with somebody as you are working with them to discern purpose? Is it that you're going in talking about their stories, their experiences, their feelings? How does it work? And how long does it often take?

 

Amanda  32:41  
So there are two primary ways that I do that. The one is that I believe that the universe speaks to us all the time, and that we are all guided. But we are raised in a particular civilisation, the modern Western world, I'm kind of talking about where we are, we're not taught how to access this extraordinary greatness within us and around us and the non physical beings that I believe we each have. So I believe that we all guided. And there are some keys to learning to tap into that. And the biggest problem is that we fill our minds and that we are constantly busy. And so there is literally no space in our minds to receive that guidance about what it is we're here to do. Or even what the next right thing is, you know, to say or whatever, like literally moment by moment.

 

So some of this reprogramming, because I've realised that all of my work is about reprogramming. And I now believe that the modern world is kind of like a cult. So we are being raised in this cult, where there are all these erroneous beliefs that we've been programmed with. So like God is a white male being up there somewhere, we are all separated from each other, we need to struggle, we must look a certain way and you know, surgery, Botox, whatever, that this is the right way to look, we need to consume all the time, whether it's a new phone or anti wrinkle cream, we believe that life is happening to us and we are kind of the victim of our circumstances, rather than we're creating it. It's okay to eat tortured animals, because like everybody's doing it, we may as well buy more plastic, because like the plan is pretty screwed.

 

So on and on, on an ordinary day, children go to school, and if they can't sit still, for long enough, they must be medicated until they can. So on and on. We've been programmed with this crazy stuff. And our job here as awakening people is to question all of those beliefs and start figuring out what is true for us or not. And the same thing is true in the legal profession. So we've been programmed to believe that there's always such a thing as certainty and truth. And this does people's heads in when a lot of it is actually really grey. We've been programmed you must discard emotions, because they do not help us in finding truth. So we must disregard our own emotions and those of our clients. The power of our intellect matters over all else, including all the other skills that we bring to the world. We must measure our worth by the number of hours that we can put in. There are winners and losers, so on, on and on. And so I help people deprogram, so creating space in your life, and in your spaciousness, literally, like in your being is one of the key parts. And it's scary, because often we've been filling every moment so that we don't feel. So there is a healing process that starts and I've channelled a message.

 

So we'll have to talk about challenges now, for lawyers, specifically on a course that I ran last year, and I feel like I want to share that with with everybody really, because the key parts of that message, or maybe give you a link to it, are slowing down to be able to hear the guidance that is coming through you. But the reason most people can't slow down is because they have not befriended themselves, they are not comfortable in the silence. And so there's this step first, that about befriending yourself and being okay and the stillness and silence, then the slowing down so that you can hear, and only then you will know the aligned actions to take. So that's one way that I work with people about the slowing down. In my own life, I've learned that overwhelm is a habit. And if anybody had said that, to me, I would have been very defensive about that.

 

But it's only coming to that realisation myself that I'm able to sit with that. On this weekend in particular, it occurred to me that I need to talk about privilege when I say overwhelm is a habit because I look at the circumstances that some people live in.  And I realised that it's my privilege that's allowing me to say overwhelm is a habit and there are a lot of people are facing so much systemic inequity and poverty and systems where the amount of people who are depending on them as more than any human should be expected to cope with. And so I feel like I just need to add that caveat. When I say overwhelming is a habit, I still believe that we can we can determine what we do with our minds. And I love looking at great leaders like Mandela who said, you know, you can imprison me, but you can't imprison my mind. 

 

Geraldine  37:35  
Yes. 

 

Amanda  37:36  
And so I try and help people see that, but you always have a choice where whatever your circumstances are, there is still a freedom. You know, Viktor Frankl talks about this as well, like in a concentration camp, but you still have the freedom of the mind. So to help people start to make these shifts and make more space, in their mind and in their lives and in their energy fields to start finding their way. And some of that involves the trauma processing, because if you're stuck with all of the stuff that you just aren't prepared to feel, it means you can't slow down because it's terrifying. So then I would work with is there trauma stuff that somebody needs to release? Or is there a forgiveness? And how can you and sometimes medications necessary now I'm not a doctor, but when someone's central nervous system is, is so burned out, and you know, this adrenal fatigue is a huge one, we're constantly on the on the go. Sometimes people who use medication in that period can start to have this experience of what it's like to live differently. And only having had that experience, can you even like begin to go, okay, this is something I want. And I now want to work towards maybe not needing medication to feel it. But it's like a rewiring of having a different experience of how it is. So medication and meditation, and I'd rather choose meditation, but in some cases, I believe that medication certainly plays a role. So those are some avenues that I work with in coaching. And then the other one is doing spiritual readings for people. And that's that the last part of the title that I use is that I'm a spiritual channel. 

 

Geraldine  39:18  
Well, could you tell us about that? I really would like to hear about it. I think people listening to this would like to hear about this. So please let us know what you do as a spiritual channel.

 

Amanda  39:30  
So it was in 2012, when I was on a trip to Bali, I had just launched the Centre for Integrative Law, feeling very called to this work of now I call it awakening lawyers. And I took a sort of five week break, I wasn't yet married, I went on my own. And I really just needed that space. I told people I'm just pressing pause, like it just it all feels like it's happening too much I'm pressing pause, and I hired a house in the rice fields near Ubud. But it was quite out there, I realised. I got there it was out in the middle of nowhere. But while I was there, I became increasingly interested in this idea of spiritual guidance, I'd heard people talking about the guide said this or said that or told them to do x-y-z. And I thought, like, that sounds really useful. How do you get those. And I literally had no idea, you know, I was not raised in a family where this sort of thing was happening. And through a series of extraordinary kind of circumstances. There was a local family who sort of adopted me and took me on pilgrimages around the island, and I was welcomed into their family and to their spiritual processes that they have there, these ceremonies all the time, which was really beautiful. And then one day, like things got faster and faster in terms of thinking about things and manifesting them. I'd been thinking about the spiritual guide thing. And then I had a coffee with someone that somebody else had told me you should meet while you're there. And it turned into this two hour extraordinary conversation with him talking about his spiritual guides, amongst other things. And a really powerful and beautiful conversation. And I remember a sort of monsoon happened. And so we couldn't leave. We were in this cafe and you know, open sides and there's rain pouring down. And we just sat drinking coffee and smoothies and yoghurt drinks as the rain belted down and the roads were flooded up to about knee height. And when that happens, well you just have to wait until it's all subsided eventually and runaway into the ravine so that the roads are safe again. And I'd only just learned to drive one of those little...

 

Geraldine  41:41  
Tuktuk things.

 

Amanda  41:41  
Scooters. Yeah, yeah. So I was very, I was like, really nervous. And all the locals are so sweet. They'd like come and surround me because they could see I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, I was managing, but I would like go back really slowly. And so I had this extraordinary encounter with this man who spoke about spiritual guides and how the first time I mean, I didn't even bring the conversation up. And the first time he thought he was losing his mind he thought maybe someone had spiked his drink and, yeah, and it was only two years later that his guides spoke to him again and said we thought that you were ready for our communication and we apologise that it had, you know that you were so terrified. We thought you were ready.

 

And so straight after that, literally that evening, the local family that adopted me while I was there said, we're going to a balian who's a local shaman's house, do you want to come? And so I said fabulous. And they told me what to wear. And they'd got me the right clothes, because it's very important, you know, the length of the sleeves, all those things. And then while I was in this temple with this woman, she said, do you want to pray with me? And I said, well, yes, you know, when you... she says do you want to meditate in my temple? And of course, not knowing anything about what's going on. I'm like, yes, okay, thank you. So I sat down, I start meditating. And then I had this weird experience of my hand starting to move, which was a little bit disturbing. Anyway, so fast forward, I just knew something was kind of moving through me. I don't know, it was unnerving. But when I got home after that Bali trip shortly thereafter, every time I meditated, my hands would start to move, like I could feel them just like, and eventually I realised they were showing me things. 

 

Geraldine  43:12  
Yeah. 

 

Amanda  43:12  
And I thought I was losing my mind. I had some sessions with my psychiatrist, I was like, I just feel that my hands are showing me something, and that it's good, like, I don't need to worry about this. And she said, well, we might need to just do a brain scan just to make sure that these aren't impulses related to, you know, like, like an ECG thing to see, like, why your hands are jumping? And I said, no, I don't think I need that. Anyway, it took me from that point about two years to start receiving the messages clearly, which I now just hear in my mind, and so about two, so that's now 2014 ish, and then I just started receiving these extraordinary messages about what you could do to work with awakening lawyers, this is how it is not your job to awaken them, this happens of their own accord, your job is to support them. And now finally, I do readings for for clients. And we ask whatever the client wants to know. So why am I here? What is my work in the world? Is this stuff I need to heal? Forgive? 

 

Geraldine  44:12  
Yeah.

 

Amanda  44:12  
And sometimes the answers are very unexpected, things are brought up about some part of the person's past, which we, you know, weren't expected. So when clients are ready, I do the soul channel work. And otherwise, we do the opening up so that you can receive your own guidance, because I believe that we all have this ability. Absolutely. We're just not trained. We're not trained in it. And I've realised now we are the strange ones. It's not weird to have spiritual guides, like that used to be my view that those were those like, you know, slightly hippy, weird people into that sort of stuff, new agey.

 

Geraldine  44:46  
New agers, yes.

 

Amanda  44:48  
But now I look at every indigenous society everywhere, Geraldine, and everybody's in touch with the spiritual world. And we are the ones who are weirdly cut off from anything except like ourselves, we've made ourselves the centre of the universe. 

 

Geraldine  45:01  
It's a natural communication, with just aspects of ourselves, because we're all connected to the whole. So there are aspects of ourselves who are probably wishing that they could communicate with us. But all it takes is for us to ask as you did when you went to Bali, you just said, I think this sounds amazing. I wish I could make contact with these guides. And that was you asking. So I had an experience where I went to Peru, and I did ayahusca. And in the middle of the ceremony, I received guidance. And I was told, we were just waiting for you to come to Peru and to do an ayahuasca ceremony because you needed to get all of that stuff out of the way so that you could listen to us. So I really, I think what you're doing by bringing this in, and thank you for sharing this with us is a gift that really the time has come. So thank you, Amanda. I am going to actually finish up on this note, because we're getting to time but sharing that I think was really necessary. It was a necessary part of having this podcast for you to share that with the listeners, the viewers so that they understand the work that you are here to do for all of us. Thank you.

 

Amanda  46:22  
And my guides have said recently which helped. So I went back over something I channelled that I'm particularly going to hold the group energy. So I'm starting to work more and more with groups like the mentorship group. And now I'm developing a container for lawyers who are transforming their practice energetically. So wanting to live in greater alignment and do work that aligns with who they really are. So I'm creating a mentorship container, which will be kind of a six month to a year container to support lawyers who are transforming. I'm very excited about that program.

 

Geraldine  46:56  
Sacred work. Thank you. Thank you, Amanda. 

 

Amanda  46:59  
Thank you. Thank you so much. I know we could talk all day. It's been a pleasure.

 

Geraldine  47:03  
We'll have you on again, that's for sure. Okay.